Re-defining Normal
On Re-Defining Normal, we are having conversations to question conventional thinking and talk about the courage it takes to create, and live, a deliciously vibrant life.
This podcast is for people who know there's a better way to do life and love....how we show up in connection to others, our kids, our partner, our business... and beyond that our relationship with money, vitality and more than anything, ourselves.
We're two shamelessly unapologetic moms choosing to experience the fullness of life and we're collapsing the conditioning that says you can't live a life of pleasure, peace and abundance in the midst of the mundane of work, life and kids.
Re-defining Normal
Episode 2: The Act of 'Staying Open" in Creating Authentic Bonds
Have you ever found yourself opening up to someone new, only to feel the urge to retreat into your shell, haunted by the ghosts of old fears and past hurts? Join Keri Lynn and Jamy Miranda as we share our raw and revealing personal experiences with the ever-evolving dance of relationships, from the tentative steps of dating to the deep dives of spiritual compatibility. This episode promises an intimate look at the courage it takes to choose vulnerability and the strength found in embracing change, all while maintaining your true north amidst the emotional triggers that relationships can bring to the surface.
As we peel back the layers of what it means to connect authentically, we navigate through the importance of spiritual alignment and the dynamism of masculine and feminine energies within us all. The conversation flows through the complexities of growth within partnerships and the delicate art of communication, underscoring the power of personal accountability and the resilience required to support each other through times of vulnerability. Join us for anecdotes that will resonate, advice that empowers, and insights into honoring your personal journey while fostering harmony in your connections.
Wrap up this enlightening dialogue with a deep exploration into the transformative effects of heartbreak and the freedom that comes from loving without guarantees. We celebrate the messy, yet liberating, journey toward self-discovery and the richness of relationships that allow us to thrive as our truest selves. Don't miss this enriching session filled with tales of sisterly support and personal revelations post-divorce, as we invite you to redefine normal with us. Subscribe and become part of our community as we continue to seek pleasure, peace, and abundance together.
Welcome to Redefining Normal. Join us as we question conventional thinking and talk about the courage it takes to create and live a deliciously vibrant life.
Jamy:This podcast is for people who know there's a better way to do life and love how we show up in connection to others our kids, our partners, our business and, beyond that, our relationship with money, vitality and, more than anything, ourselves.
Keri:We're two shamelessly unapologetic moms choosing to experience the fullness of life.
Jamy:And we're collapsing the conditioning that says you can't live a life of pleasure, peace and abundance in the midst of the mundane of life, responsibilities, work and kids.
Keri:Thank you for listening in. Let's do this. Hello and welcome to Redefining Normal with Keri Lynn and Jamie Miranda. This week we are having a we're having a conversation often. I'm going to start it this way Oftentimes, before we get on our calls, she and I are sitting here talking and having some sort of conversation, and so today, the conversation is around this new experience of dating for me dating a new guy and we were talking about how I'm navigating things a little bit differently than I would have in the past, and so how do we move into it? We want to talk today a lot about how we move into the fear of unknown and also how do we shift our patterns and our relational patterns when we've been doing things in the past and now we want to change things and do them differently. And how do we show up differently for ourselves within? This can be intimate relationships, friendships, co-working. However, we want to look at this. But how do we shift relational patterns and show up differently? Yes, yes, jamie.
Jamy:Yeah, yeah. So first of all I want to say thank you to you, because it's really vulnerable to talk about intimate relationships and being really honest about what's happening internally, seeing your own shadow and then also being willing to share it externally. So I think that it's a really powerful gift that you're willing to kind of share the behind the scenes of this whole. You know experience or process and what's happening internally. But the thing that really has stood out to me in what you were sharing earlier and we will share with all of you and get into the details of it really is the ability to recognize when you want to close and choosing to stay open. So can you share a little bit about what happened in the space, the conversation, the relationship that initiated that desire to close that old pattern?
Keri:to close that old pattern Without getting too into detail around it. It really is a. It was a conversation that something had triggered in me that had happened in a past relationship and I didn't want any experience of this relationship and the old me has definitely shut down in the past and gone. Nope, I'm not going to deal with this. I don't want to have anything to do with this. This is not okay. I don't want to talk about it. I want to completely shut you out and what Jamie and I were talking about.
Keri:I'm a manifester in human design and so manifesters, to be really clear with everybody with it. We have a closed aura, so it's hard enough as it is for anyone you have to be able to like I have to choose to let you in and if I don't choose to let you in, for any of you who are listening, you won't be able to necessarily feel me. And it's interesting because one of the things I've played with in the world of my own dating has been meeting new people. It's been like I want to meet manifestors, to meet what it feels like, to meet the aura. I'm like, oh man, we really are closed, we really are hard to read and unable to be read unless we let you in. And so for me, this is a really, really, really big piece, because I consciously have to choose to let somebody in and when I'm not consciously choosing, it's already something you can't feel or read. And then when I shut down, it makes it a hundred million times worse.
Keri:And it's been my relational pattern to completely either be an anxious attachment or completely go the other way and avoid and be like I'm totally shutting you out, I can't be fucked. You've hurt me too much and I'm going to and I don't want to even deal with this, I don't want to talk about this anymore because you're not listening to me, you're not hearing me, fuck off. And so this is where I was yesterday, when you're having this conversation, and it was something that triggered because I had been hurt by this situation before in the past. I had been hurt by what this person was asking of me and I didn't want it. I don't want that in my relationship. And instead of shutting down, I was willing to and able to hear the person and have compassion and have an understanding of where this person's coming from and why he wants this, and not totally shut him out.
Jamy:Right and I think that, because I have a similar dynamic in my two line in the hermit is like this kind of closed or discerning, like not everybody can get inside of a two line. But also I think beyond that, it's a human nature, it's like a defense mechanism like, oh hurt, so I'm going to close my heart, I'm going to close my, um, my ability to feel you, because whatever you're going to do is going to potentially hurt me. So I'm just going to close the connection.
Keri:I think something, something you've said to me throughout my whole dating process, regardless of the situation is, is this concept, and Jamie has reflected back to me over and over and over again. You guys, if you've like, and we will talk over the next however many episodes this goes on for about, I'm sure more shit will come up about my dating, because there's been some seriously dumb shit that's going on, right, and I say this because, over and over and over again, I've had people hurt me and do things that have been really hurtful and do things that I'm like, wow, humanities, this is really where we're at. And one of the things that Jamie reflects back to me every time is the compassion that I have, and not just for the other person, but for the fact that I then go and I go. Well, that hurt. Okay, where am I going to open next and every time, show up in this place of my open heart to meet somebody, because I firmly believe that when we're going to meet somebody, if I show up closed and I show up, that it's going to hurt, and I show up and I say, well, you're going to be an idiot and you're going to be a jackass and you're going to be a fraction of all the other people, then exactly what I'm going to get is that, and they're never going to get to meet me, because I came with a closed heart and I said, no, you don't get me Right, right.
Keri:And so the challenge for me has been in be like yep, that hurt and keep my heart open. Yep, that hurt and keep my heart open. And I think this is true whether you're dating or whether you're in marriage, because even in marriage, you guys like Jamie and friendship, oh my God, and especially female friendships. Ladies, come on. Yeah, like seriously, I've been hurt by women more than I've been hurt by men. Like some of the women, wounds I have are fucked up.
Jamy:Yeah, yeah, in the school of you, I call this like. This is connected to choosing your North star, like what is your, what is your purpose, what is your end goal? And so, like, if it is to create connection, if it is to create intimacy, if it is to, like in dating, find a partner or find best friends, or like in parenting paradox, to create loving relationships within your household and with your kids, the North star has to be strong enough to override that defense mechanism. Yes, the old stories come in and it's like it's justified.
Jamy:It would be completely justified, based on your past experiences, for you to say, nope, this isn't the one You're out and I'm on to something new. Right, but justified doesn't mean it's the action that's in alignment with what you want to create. And in those moments you have to pause long enough to decide. Is my reaction and my fear stronger than the thing that I'm devoted to creating? And that's what I stand in awe of with you, carrie, when I watch you navigate this, because even me as like a third, like vicariously experiencing the dating world through you.
Jamy:My heart is like close, close down. This one's not safe. Protect yourself. And you're like. I want to experience. I want to continue, whatever this particular dynamic holds for me, and there's still value in it for me. So I'm going to choose to open. So is there something that happens for you, or how did you get to this place that your North Star is stronger than your reactive fear in the moment?
Jamy:And maybe it isn't always right, like we're human, and there are moments where there is this like fuck you, I am not available. We still have to navigate our way out of it if we want connection.
Keri:OK, there's two questions there. I'll go. The first one, remind me of them, because the first one was the North Star. The second one is how have I navigated this?
Keri:Yes, so North Star for me is I firmly believe, wholeheartedly, that there is a person for me in this world. And you know what? I don't even believe in like that there is one person, but there is definitely a person for me, at least one of them, that is going to and can meet me in the places that I want to be met. And I want to be met on a mental level, emotional level, physical level, spiritual level and energetic level. And, to be fair, I'm pretty cool with meeting you on the astral level. If we were to go there too, right, right and um.
Keri:But those are the five. They're really fricking important, right? And if you can't meet me in those places, then you're not the one for me, because there's something that's going to be missing. And I really believe that when that happens, when two humans and I say this in friendship too, like as as women to women I think this is really important and in an intimate relationship, I think that a man and a woman together in a union that are supportive in all aspects of life are unstoppable. And I think that not only if you come together in two whole people, you each create your dreams individually and then collectively together. And I know for me in the experience that I'm in even in the experience I'm in already like the grounding that happens, the peace that happens, the support that happens in a really healthy relationship is profound it is.
Jamy:So I'm curious do you think that one, there's one person that can meet all of those things for you, Maybe, maybe. More specifically, what does meet mean to you?
Keri:I think that no, yes, yeah, yes and no, yes, I think there's a person who can meet us on all those levels. I also think that we get to have other people who also meet us on those levels. Yeah, and I don't think there's one person. I think one of the tragic things that happens in relating and marriage is that we expect that the other person is going to be our be all end all, and they're not. And the second you put that pressure on somebody to be your be all end all, you fuck the relationship.
Jamy:Yeah, no one person can be the everything. For me, though I think I was recognizing. For me, meet means um, that they can be curious about what my, my journey, my perspective is. They don't have to be the same, they don't even have to agree, but they cannot reject or judge what my, my place, my stance, my being is in those places.
Keri:That's a really great way to say it, and I think there's something around like that. There's a way to connect around those spaces where somebody rejects like right.
Keri:Rejects you for your beliefs, rejects you for your spiritual beingness. Like you know, for me spirit is God. It doesn't mean that we have to have the same idea of God or the same God or the same you know like way to get to God, even say that Right, because people are going to have different ways, and one of my favorite things has been in exploring different dating with men is that, like I love meeting men who I don't come from a spiritual space, right, I don't come from this like very woo-woo space, because I've met engineers, I've met people in oil companies, I've met people in like the most far out places, and one of my favorite things to learn is how do they connect to spirit?
Jamy:How are they emotionally?
Keri:How are they? Because every single one of them that would have come with me far enough has their way. Yes, Right.
Keri:Even within one or two conversations. They all have their way. It's different than mine, yeah, might not be the same, but I don't need it to be the same. As long as I know that they have their path to that Right, and however they do that, that's great. As long as they can handle themselves in their space and know that they have a relationship with spirit, with emotion, with their physical body, with their energetic, with their mind, however that shows up for them, then we can meet and it's actually really curious, like I love then the conversation that comes like oh, what can I learn from you? Because maybe your way of connecting can support me in mind. So I mean, I didn't know.
Jamy:That's how we evolve and grow and learn is to take in new perspectives, cause even the way you're talking about that really does recognize that spirituality or woo woo stuff is another dogma, like it's just another dogmatic way of operating in the space of connection. I used to think that I wanted Kyle to be spiritual, like with me, and I have since realized like I actually prefer that he's not like, that I get to hold that pillar in our relationship and he respects it and he honors it and he's curious about it and he's open to it. But he doesn't like he doesn't operate that way, but it's like it lets me actually really be kind of the Oracle in that position of like utilizing that perspective in our connection and then taking action or, you know, making aligned decisions in it, and I would probably be a little frustrated or annoyed, even like turned off, by someone who operated the same way I do in that regard, where I used to think I wanted a guy who you know like was so into that.
Jamy:I'm so lucky that Kyle has stuck with me through that because I, like I, nagged and applied so much pressure and I'm glad and grateful that he held his own pillar in his you know, his the way of navigating.
Keri:I think that's a really beautiful thing to say, jb, because there's so many women in this world and I really want to like, like, hold this here, because there are so many I was in the same place with with Hugh that you know like we want to take them with us and we want to have them come and they're like and and and. The truth is that men, women, it is our job, it is the Aquarian, we are the feminine way, and I find totally fair, totally honest, my, my this is just my, my experience of men in my dating experience, the men that are in that space, they're so the ones that I have interacted with, the ones that I see, the places where I see it go really ick is they're actually so into that they're in their feminine, they're not in their masculine, yeah, and so they can't hold a masculine pole because they're actually meeting you and then ends up that the woman will end up in the masculine and he'll be in the feminine. It doesn't work, yeah.
Jamy:And I think that in order to allow that we we who are holding the feminine um it, it. It's uh uncomfortable if we have unhealed wounds around like that. That structure, that stability, that control is what it oftentimes like. The distortion of it is like you're trying to control me or you're trying to whatever, but to start to recognize the value and the gifts in it versus the rejection or the trigger around it. I do want to actually go into that in a minute, but I do want to bring you back to how do you navigate from the trigger in, back to your North star, because the trigger is real, like you're having a psychosomatic reaction to a past experience, and it's real right, like it's not easy to be in the anger, to be in the shutdown. How do you find your way back to? Okay, I'm feeling this and I'm going to take a different action in this moment.
Keri:Such a good question. Okay, I have to feel this first. It really like it's that. It's like I have to feel it first. So in my body. What I will do in those moments is I'm like, okay, let me feel what just happened, what just came into? Like. For me it literally is what just came into my body, what just into my field, what's information that just came here. Okay, let me sit with this information. What is here and why? What? What's in my body? What is actually getting triggered? Right, that's the first piece.
Jamy:Is it like sensations? Is it feelings? Do you label it? Is it thoughts like what does that look like? Feel like?
Keri:first when, when this happened yesterday, there's a pause, and I did actually check into my body. Do I want to open? Do I want to stay closed? That was the first question I asked myself. Do I actually want to share this with you right now? Am I ready, am I willing? Do I have words for this, or do I need to actually just sit in my own space and be like I don't have this space for this right now, cause I don't know the answer? Right Um For me in that moment and through the last day, as I've been processing this, I've been able to, and I think this becomes part of the first, becomes the feeling, but then it comes into the mind and we can start to look at like what am I really triggered by? Right? Is it him and his actions? Is it me and my desires? Is it? And then I had to go. I woke up this morning processing past shit.
Jamy:Right, right and it has nothing to do with it, you're bringing up this last painful thing Right, this last painful experience Right and layered in layered in like literally.
Keri:I was like, oh my God, and he's come back up in my life.
Jamy:And then that particular story comes knocking on your door Like remember me, remember me, remember me.
Keri:He shows up again.
Jamy:I'm like, oh, lordy, lordy, it's all here for me, and just for the audience, literally like the past trigger that this was kind of activating, that person pops into you know the field with a message or something right.
Keri:So it's ironic how and it's been a year, you guys it's been a year since this past person over a year, since last January it's April January, it's April since last January that we've spoken and all of a sudden he shows back up in my life and I'm like really that's interesting. And so then we get to notice and this is again. We get to notice, like what is really here?
Jamy:Yes. Right, because then I can look at this and I go, well, I can take all of this and I can, and I can throw all of this onto the new person Right and you can throw him out because he activated that past thing right, like, oh nope, you're bringing up this painful memory, so I don't want you anywhere near me, but then you're seeing him or treating him as a character, and not the soul and the being and the person that he is in front of you.
Keri:And he's not that person. He's not the person. That was the person I dated last year and he's nothing like. I mean, it's like I don't want to compare them in that way because it's so much different. And so if I were to take that and say, okay, I'm triggered here and then make this you, that just hurts him and me. And then I get to and that's what I would have done in the past and I would have shut down and gone like I can't cope.
Keri:But yesterday, what was a beautiful because is different was and this is why Jamie and I were talking about this was in the past I would have shut down, but this time I went. Well, I can spend the next two days being resentful, pissed off, shut down from him and he's gonna be like what the fuck just happened? I have no idea because I didn't say anything, right, and then I would make. I would make it all pissy and he'd show up the next day in a couple of days and be like what is going on with you? And then I'd probably be all fiery and bitchy and shut down and be like what would have been a beautiful loving connection with him would have been ruined because of my shit that has nothing to do with him. Yeah.
Jamy:Yeah, right, and so I can make a choice.
Jamy:I think about how often this happens in friendships, in marriages and romantic romantic relationships with our kids, even like right, and so I think this is.
Jamy:I think it's important to point out that even if you're on the flip side like we're talking about the perspective of being triggered and how to hold ourselves and navigate and communicate through it but also when you're in a close relationship with someone, whether it's intimate or friendship, or your kids, to also be able to hold yourself. It's intimate or friendship, or your kids to also be able to hold yourself. When something gets projected onto you, like if somebody is triggered and is like fuck you, you're, you know, like you're gonna whatever do something that hurts me, we also on the on the receiving end of that can hold space for someone's process from trigger back to connection. Cause what happens is one person gets triggered and projects. Happens is one person gets triggered and projects and then that person gets defensive and is like, oh yeah, I'm going to talk to you, then I don't want to talk to you and there's just no connection. It's like both parts of the equation have to stay at the table.
Keri:And this is it. Like you know, I think I think this is literally like if, if we can look at relating and this is where I've seen dating and the world, and like so many people, so many people in marriage, and everything it's to come to the table is to be willing to say this is where I am, this is actually not about you, this is where I am. Yeah, own your shit and go. You know what? This is what I want, this is what I need. Can, what? Where are you at with this? Like, how does this make you feel that I and this was the conversation yesterday, it was like this is how I feel how does it make you feel to actually hear me say that?
Keri:Yeah yeah, right, and it was never like you have to go change, you have to go do this, you have to. No, no, no, it was just like I'm gonna own my feelings. I wanna hear what you feel. How do we feel about any of this?
Jamy:Yeah, Does this particular equation work, but if your needs do not match his capacity to meet them, or vice versa, it doesn't mean that the relationship is, like no longer valuable. It's like change the equation, like what are our agreements? Are our agreements? Because this is the? This is like the next step of that is right now monogamy and compulsory monogamy. Right Like this idea that you pick someone and you guys do life together forever ignores the fact that human beings are continually changing. So, like when I committed to Kyle 20 years ago, I am a completely different person.
Jamy:I'm a completely different person than I was a year ago, let alone 20 years ago, and so if there's some expectation that I could tell him 20 years ago that I will be this forever for you is unrealistic. If that is maintained, if the perception of that is maintained, someone is pretending, someone is keeping themselves in a little box in order to accommodate the agreement, versus creating agreements. In a relationship where you both acknowledge we are ever evolving and changing beings, can we choose to navigate our changes alongside each other and have respect and honor each other's process, even if it makes us uncomfortable.
Keri:Yes, and you know what, jamie, to me it brings this to where I was in the marriage, because we couldn't. I was changing and he didn't want to see the changes. He didn't want to honor where I was at. He didn't want to honor the places that I wanted to go. He didn't want to see me in the hard parts of my life where I had turned to different things food, weed, all the different things that I turned to to avoid because I was in so much pain, because I was so full of anxiety, because I was filling so many pain, because I was so full of anxiety because I was feeling so many voids in my life.
Keri:Right, and I'm saying this because if you're listening to this, you might be in a marriage or relationship that looks like that, right, and so when we look at that and I can say it was because we couldn't come to the table and actually reignite seeing each other, and I always say like I want to see you with new eyes and I want to choose you every day, yeah, right, like every day, I want to see you as who you show up to be today, because who you show up to be today, and especially now, like there was so much evolution happening between all of us in humanity right, as friends, as lovers, as whatever. And I want to see you today who you are and I want to accept you today who you are and I want to accept you today who you are and I want to love you today who are, even if that makes me uncomfortable, is the thing.
Jamy:Yes, like, this is the point, right, like, because it's ironic right that, like, kyle and I were in similar portals, as you and your ex you know, and the outcomes of those things were the difference in the capacity to stay in the conversation Right, the difference in the capacity to stay in the conversation and to accept the changes that were happening versus what it feels like is like an anchor right, like digging in your heels and like no, this is not what I agreed to whenever, however many years ago, so I don't want it I. What are we today and how do we create the bridge and the connection and the commitment to making whatever we both are now work?
Keri:Yeah, and I think it's interesting because you say that, like you, you couldn't see me. And I always say to him, like you, couldn't see me with new eyes because, like the things that he saw were true, you guys, like I, did have some stuff that was really fucking hard for him to deal with with mental, with an undiagnosed mental health stuff, like that would have been really fricking hard for him.
Keri:There's no doubt, and I have a lot of compassion and as I come out of them like as we've separated out of the marriage and I've seen how I've shifted in new relationships I'm like man, that man, like he. Really he had to work to be okay and be in relationship with me with the way that my moods and the swings I had and the way I would have switched it all over him and dumped on him Right.
Jamy:There's no blaming Like he was not faultless in the dynamic.
Keri:None of us are, but when I started to shift and change, he couldn't see me with new eyes. He still holds me in that. He still sees me as this.
Jamy:Projecting the old versions of you as the old versions of you is the old version of me Right.
Keri:And that will not work. And it doesn't work when we hold ourselves in that either Cause. Then I held myself there. Yeah, I limited myself by like in the duality right. It was a duality because I could see these new parts of me. I wanted to play these new parts of me but I couldn't because I had a partner who wouldn't play them with me.
Jamy:Right, so when you ask me here.
Keri:It was like what's my North star? How do I keep coming back to my North star? Is my North star is I want this relationship, this partnership that is so full of love. And so it means that when I look at these places where I'm like well in the past, like literally the question I'll go is like in the past, and sometimes I'll even say this to the person in the past I would have done this right, this is what I would have done, I would have shut down and I would have totally pushed you away. I don't know how I'm going to do this differently. Right now, it feels really vulnerable and really scary to do it different and it might come out wrong and I might hurt you as I do this and I don't mean to and I don't know what's going on but I'm going to try this a new way. And he's sitting at the table.
Jamy:And he sits at the table with me. Yeah, that's the thing I mean. Similar, like I have literally told Kyle like I want to say, really mean things to you right now and he'll go okay, go ahead, you need to. I just want to offend you. I feel the desire to like poke at things that are completely unrelated. Right, like, why do I want to talk about the way you chew your food when we're talking about like it's weird Our defense mechanisms of what we do to push people away and then to recognize them and then to vocalize them and tell the other person and then to have the other person be like all right, you gotta do what you gotta do, I'll hold space for that. Um, or he could say I can't and you're gonna need to deal with that, right, but like, we're communicating, we're sharing what's happening and we're not abandoning each other that's it.
Jamy:That's it yeah that's it and it's the same for 20 years. There was like fine, then if we can't figure this out, maybe we just don't work like. I have said that to Kyle so many times.
Keri:I've been at that door so many damn times and then we find out we got to each other. Before we got married he was like I'm not, he knew, I wasn't even convinced. Until the fucking day of the marriage I was like, okay, now I'm really here, I'm in. He's like he knew he's like carrie, you could go any. I'm like, yep, yeah, yeah, until the day until the day we got married. And then from that, like there was all these times where he's like carrie and he would stand there like a rock.
Jamy:Right, yeah, do it, go ahead you yeah, and that the beauty Like this is the beauty and the shadow of the rock, right, it's like it stays when you want to push, but then it also can't adjust when things do change, you know.
Keri:So it's like you've got the double edged sword of that stability that rock, right, right, and I think and I think you know the other beautiful thing is that no-transcript differently and are being called into a different way of being. So even the partner on the other side, kyle, this other person, wherever you know, whoever you're with these partners, these men, especially these men, like women, we've been playing this for a few years now. A lot of us, right, we've been playing into this energy, we've been leading the space. But a lot of the guys, guys and I and I and I bring this in here Cause I think I think it's really relevant in the fact that a lot of women have a lot of hatred to men and they have a lot of like the patriarchy socks and the dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and they want to blame the men and this and that and the other.
Keri:But what I want to say is, like they've been just as hurt, right, they like, if we look at Kyle, we look at the Hugh, we look at the you know all the people we're talking about they've been just as hurt and in able to express their emotions because we have castrated them. We've said we want to hear them, but then we don't give them the space. Then if they tell us we're like, you're weak.
Jamy:And oftentimes we're talking early, it's justified right, like there is justified action because like well, he did do this, or they, or men, or whatever, because even we're talking about men and women. But I think that women, we, we hate our own inner masculine and and men are triggered by their own inner feminine. So it's like all these things that we I mean because we're both like cis, hetero women, so we relate in this way of dynamics with men, but this is an inner relationship as well, and like an energetic dynamic of the, the opposing polarities of energy, and we really are in a society that that values um mental structure and the, the, the yin or the feminine, is more like chaos, is more movement, is more the unknown, and that's terrifying for-.
Keri:It's terrifying for men.
Jamy:It's terrifying for women, it's terrifying for all of us to like enter into this.
Keri:Right. But when we look at this too, like when we look at this, and we go, okay, well, I want to shift and change, but then I expect this other human on the other side, man or woman, right To meet me in this new place. It's like they have. They have their own stuff to move through. They have their own like. I've never tried this. I've never had a space to be comfortable to share my emotions. You've always cut me out, or some woman has already shut me out and some woman has castrated me, or some woman has told me that I'm an asshole, like the first woman in their lives and how did she show up for them?
Jamy:And I mean all of that. But I want to bring this back to what we had said, like in the beginning of our conversation. In this kind of hetero men women dynamic, there are a lot of women who are complaining about men not showing up, men being aimless, men being whatever, and the role that we play in that. So the clarity that you came to about it wasn't about the request he was making, what was it about? What like? What was the frustration or the push away right? Like it wasn't the action of the request, it was the energy under the push away right. Like it wasn't the the action of the request, it was the energy under the request that was was triggering for you. So we can talk a little bit about that, because then we can kind of expand into that bit.
Keri:Yeah, it's interesting because when we were talking about this, basically where I was saying that would push me away in this experience is that if he's not in alignment with his highest truth and he doesn't take action On his highest timeline to actually create, walk into and step into his purpose work, it doesn't matter who this person is Not creating something intentional, right. And he's not doing his work, then I will not feel him be solid in himself and I will wobble.
Jamy:Yeah, right.
Keri:And you said the same thing about Kyle, like Kyle has done this.
Jamy:Yeah, we had the same conversation this last weekend was like it cause it's, it's interesting. You know what I know. I mean, like we can, we can talk about all kinds of different things, um, and it's never about the action, right, like I mean. Even so, like in marriage, in monogamy in particular, the one thing that's kind of standard in monogamy is there are no, um, external partners or connections sexually right.
Jamy:And it's interesting because I can think about this and the idea of Kyle connecting with somebody else isn't about the connection, it's about him in integrity with himself in that connection. So this is that like separation on an extreme level, right, like in monogamy. Talking about sex with other people is kind of an extreme push of that. But it could be him choosing to sit on his phone, it could be him choosing to watch football, it could be him choosing to, whatever go fishing, whatever. It's not the action, it's. Has he checked in with the integrity, with his highest purpose in that action? If it's mindless, if it's distraction, if it's avoidance, right, like I feel it in my body. But if he has checked in and he is intentionally choosing that, love it.
Jamy:I love it for you, like you are on your path Right.
Keri:I will say, like this was actually part of the biggest part of the destruction of my marriage was knowing that he was on a path doing the thing to because he was good at it.
Keri:He's a massage therapist and he's amazing, like truly gifted in healing people in their bodies, and they're fixing people's bodies. And yet I've known for a long time this is not his. His like his highest timeline. He wants to do other work in the world and we've talked about it for many years and like literally to the point where if you look back at his university, he was like, oh, you did that because he's really into environment, like he wants to build environmentally friendly houses. He was an environmental engineer, environmental engineer.
Keri:I was like, oh, you actually picked that because this is actually what you wanted, but that was all you knew then is your way in. And so for years I would encourage him to be like go go do other things, go find the way to go build this, go do this thing, and he would play in it, but he would never commit to actually stepping onto that path in that timeline and so because of that, he would be in a disconnect with himself and then, in that disconnect from himself, he was unhappy. And so this is where the problem becomes, because then they're unhappy and I don't want to be with a man who's not in his integrity, with who he is, and doing his purpose work in the world because then they're not living their, their highest truth and their highest alignment. And I am a person who is of my highest truth and highest alignment, and I take the fucking action.
Jamy:Yeah, right, but here's the difference that I see you doing now is um, we can't control other people's actions. So we're like, because you were married with him, you pushed. Like you you need to get into alignment. Versus you're like in your core and I'm not engaging if you're not in your alignment. It's almost like access or no access versus I need you to do this so that I feel safe. You know, it's like I'm only interested in engaging and moving forward in spaces where there's alignment. So it's like you're taking responsibility for your value system, like your bare minimums. Because I mean, like we were talking earlier, I was pushing Kyle for so long because I had an idea of what his alignment looked like. Right, all I created was resistance, something for him to fight against.
Jamy:Versus like I'm going to focus on my alignment and I'm going to give you space to focus on yours, and we choose, like I mean our paths kind of go like this right, like when we're when our, our, our aligned paths are closer together sometimes than they are at others. You know, we still choose to stay at the table. We're just maybe further apart. Right, like we don't go. Oh well, now you're not my whatever. So we're separating Like he is my family, he's my person, and how it's so weird to me how like I love you and I had kids with you and we created a life, and now you're not meeting these needs. So get out right. It's so weird to me how we do that, like it's a very monogamous mindset of like all or none at versus, like you were talking about, even with this person, like if they can't give you what you need in this particular regard. Change the equation. What is the relationship then? What are the agreements and?
Keri:how are we Right, which isn't where we are, but like it is. That is the truth. And I also want to say here, I think, one of the things that I noticed and I noticed and I really pay attention to, because when you start to like, really start to like again. You guys, our first episode was about taking self-responsibility. So this is again. This is self-responsibility. Right, come back to it. When I can come back into myself and take the responsibility, a lot of the times that I want to go and change somebody or I want to go tell them what to do, it's because I'm avoiding myself. Exactly A hundred percent.
Jamy:It's like, I'm like.
Keri:I don't want to go do my work, so I'm just going to make you my project, right?
Jamy:Yeah, it's literally in. A lot of fucking women do it. A lot of women.
Keri:I'm going to go make you my project, but really the project should be yourself, Right? And I think really important piece is because we do we outsource that so that we can avoid ourselves.
Jamy:And this brings us back to what we were saying is we've been projecting on men. Men are shit, men aren't showing up, men are whatever. Because we aren't holding that stand for ourselves, like. So the thing that we're saying is that there is, there is a biological drive in heterosexual men. They want the woman. There is a if women really were in integrity with um. There I mean because for me it's it is a physical sensation like there is a repulsion to someone who is out of alignment with their themselves. But we oftentimes override that well. Well, because I'm supposed to, or I want to be chosen, or I don't want to be alone, or I don't want to be abandoned, versus what turns us on and getting in integrity with the expectation that a man who is in integrity with himself, who is on purpose and doing that work, is who has access, you know.
Keri:And, by the way, I want to say here too they don't have to figure it out, no one has to have it figured out and I think that's a lot of pressure to put on any human being and yourself right. The point is do it messy, but just make sure that, even if it's like a small step, are you doing it Are you choosing to be reflective, aware, you know, like choosing that path, and it isn't.
Jamy:It is, it's messy as fuck. I mean like mine and yours is messy as fuck, right, like we maybe have a little more practice, but we have more practice having it be a mess, yeah, right, but it is. It's like I think that I I mean, I have two daughters, so you know this like awareness that the feminine chooses, like we do get to create an energetic kind of standard of of what, what we want, and a lot of women are overriding that.
Jamy:But then we're also mad that men aren't stepping up because we never made them we didn't like create any motivation or inspiration in our own standards with self, and so and it's interesting because you have boys right so like we both kind of come at this from very different dynamics. But I think so many women don't want to be abandoned, they want to be chosen, and so it's like a guy gives attention, it's like he's chosen me, I'm going to be whatever, versus like he's not meeting my bare minimum, so I'm not available for that.
Keri:I was going to say you bring this to the words that I was literally in my mind, or the neediness and the difference between when I was married and where I am now huge difference, Like, if I can say, the biggest differences I actually uncovered when I left the marriage. What kept me there for so long was two beliefs I need to have a man or I'm going to die. Literally was like I will die without a man in my life. And if I don't have a man in my life, I what was the other one? It was like I'm not, you guys, I've gotten rid of them.
Jamy:I'm not successful, I'm not worthy, type of a thing without a man and there is a biological. You know for some of us that that like longing, but like historically, women couldn't get a credit card without a male co-signer as recently as like 75 or something like that.
Keri:You couldn't even get a bank account. You couldn't even get a bank account.
Jamy:And then like 14 years later, when a first woman could get a bank loan like without a male co-signer.
Keri:Before that they had to have women open banks, because women couldn't actually even just get a bank account without a man.
Jamy:So finally, finally, I mean like my aunt was talking- about that she couldn't buy a car because she didn't have a husband. So like this, this kind of this belief is not just personal, like it exists in the collective of this needing a man.
Keri:Um to exist, to survive.
Jamy:Yeah to to be worthy to be important when be important.
Keri:When I had that, when I had that under, when I had those underlying beliefs. And now that we've said it, you guys, ladies, check in like do you have that belief? Because that belief kept me in a marriage that was not healthy for a really long time?
Jamy:Yeah, and it's hard to acknowledge, like when I'm like a badass, empowered, leading, I'm doing woman things like it is painful to acknowledge and I really do have this undercurrent of you guys, it was only two years ago.
Keri:If you know me long enough, you know I've been talking online about stuff like this for a long ass time and I had those underlying beliefs right because the shadow of it is fuck him, I don't need him.
Jamy:right like, if we can't acknowledge that, that that idea is there and we're resisting it, then we become hateful and like push away, and resentful and pissed off and we push away.
Keri:And so where I sit now is that I don't need right Like it's a choice. It's a choice for me to show up in right.
Keri:I choose to show up with you and I want to work through this with you and I want to create this with you. And how do we create this together from a place that I am whole and you are whole and we come together and I have dreams and you have dreams, and what are the dreams you want to create together? Whereas even in a marriage you guys, this is something that I've I've considered for a long time in marriages that, like, I didn't even know what my dreams were versus his dreams, right, this is very like you become 17 years together.
Keri:You become like entwined that you're like who's me and who do I like? To the point where, when you're living with somebody for so long, you're like do I even want to eat at this time of day, Right? I don't even know, because I'm on someone else's kids and you're on autopilot and you're like the kids have to eat here, and then I'm like what is like when? When we separated and I had weeks on my own, I was like what would be my natural rhythm if I just ate.
Jamy:What would be fun to watch you like decondition and figure out who you are.
Keri:And it's totally like there are a lot of changes that have happened.
Jamy:Yes, oh, my gosh yeah.
Keri:Oh, I don't have to do that thing anymore. Okay, well then I'm going to do it this way, cause this one feels way better. And I say this because I think a lot, of, a lot of marriages like I, I invite in, like where can you create that spaciousness so that you can find these things that you actually realize you don't quote unquote need each other. That's codependency, where you don't need each other but you choose each other.
Jamy:Transactional. I mean this is true in friendships too. You know, like I had a friend recently who was kind of triggered because I didn't need her anymore and I'm like I've never needed you. I want you, Like I choose you, I value your input, but it's never because, like this transactional, I need you so I keep you around, and even that conversation was liberating for her to be like oh, I don't have to like serve a purpose or or fill a need to be loved and and accepted.
Keri:And this is like, this is our state, Like this is where, right, and like so many relationships are built on condition If you do this, I'll do this. And, like my, my marriage was that if you do this, I'll do this for you. If you do this, then I'll do this for you. And and if you if you don't do that, then I'm not going to do this, I'm going to pull this away. Yeah, right, it's unhealthy, like, choose to show up, because I choose. Regardless of what you're going to give me back. I want to do this for you. Yeah, right, and choose that. I don't need you to fill me. I feel myself.
Keri:Yeah, and what Jamie has been saying to me as she's watched me go through the dating is, as I've walked into this experience and it really is a beautiful, loving experience that I'm experiencing right now. As I've walked in, she's been like Carrie I love how open your eyes are to like, yep, that's here and I'm aware and I can navigate. What do I want? How is this okay with me, is it not? Am I okay to go this way? Am I okay to go this way? Am I okay to move that way? Does it work for me to be in here and where are? And like?
Keri:This is the other thing that I noticed now too, and I and I God, I hear it in people dating and it makes me want to like vomit If the amount of stupid shit that people care about like the other day someone was talking about if she doesn't have good grammar, if he doesn't have good grammar, I'm like, oh my God, that poor man and all the men behind him, right, right, like seriously, that's going to be your deciding factor whether he has good grammar or not. I feel really bad for them. Right, you are eliminated. That's for that person.
Jamy:Like that's what you're basing your relationships on. Like there's so much more to a person, right, there's so no, and that's, and like that's totally fine, right.
Keri:To each other Relationships If that's each their own, each their own right. I say this because, for me, what has been so beautiful to experience in this relationship is that it doesn't matter so many of the things that I thought would matter and the more that I've come through dating and I've gone, because I actually call data like dataing right.
Jamy:We just taken data. We're like, oh, do I like that? No, you can engage in relationships that way. That is so healthy.
Keri:Right, and it's like saying, okay, does this matter to me? Actually, no, I thought it would, but what really matters is a safe container to be able to express, explore and be fully seen, and this is the first time I have been able to be in a container where I am fully asked to be fully like, which is why I step in and I can go. You know what?
Keri:I'm not going to shut down because I know you actually want this because you can actually take this on the other side and go and own it and take your part of this and go. Okay, let me just sit with that and see how I feel about that, exactly Right, and I want to see all of him and I'm like don't hide any piece of it because it's in the hiding, and like I spent a fucking entire marriage hiding, hiding, hiding, hiding because he didn't want to see stuff, right, and I'm like, if I can be in a place where I'm seen fully, where I am, the all of it, like the other stuff, who cares?
Jamy:No, exactly, and I and I like just to acknowledge that it is uncomfortable Like this is part of the challenge is allowing yourself to feel the discomfort of someone's big emotions, feelings like it is hard work, but this is why it's so important to be in connection to yourself and to be able to stop and not just react back. It just creates this perpetual war versus like all right, this is really like. This is uncomfortable for me when you are this angry because it brings up my past stuff around, whatever, but when two people can do that intentionally, it's, it's beautiful, it's so beautiful. It's how we change the world, you know, and we do it in every relationship. I mean even you and me, and our relationship with our kids and our relationships with our friends.
Jamy:This isn't just marriage, this is where it shows up the most. But like relationships are not here to make us happy or to make us complete. They're to show us ourselves, you know, to help us evolve, to teach us how to be better and more ourselves and more in alignment. And when we start looking at relationships that way, I mean like gene keys that's what the Venus sequence is. It's not like relationships are not here to make you happy, they're here to help you grow. They're here to help you evolve and to learn, and when you use them that way, it's so healthy and it's so beautiful. Really, even in breaking up, even in like choosing that you're not on the same path, it still can be beautiful.
Keri:Mm-hmm.
Jamy:I'm really excited that you're in this place because I will tell, I mean like Carrie knows I've been, I've been the breaks because I, you know, I mean like I did know her two years ago. I mean more than that, right. But to to watch her go from the Carrie who was bending over backwards and abandoning herself to accommodate relationship, it's been beautiful to watch her get confronted. I mean, Carrie, like to get confronted with these spaces where you could easily either shut him out or collapse into okay, whatever you want, so that you don't be able to say that doesn't work for me, but what does you know? Like to be very honest about where you're at, with an open heart and complete surrender to whatever his response might be to that is absolutely beautiful.
Jamy:And I can feel like, okay, I don't need to protect her all the time. She's holy moly, oh my god, that big sister. I'm the oldest of four girls, so like when I see that I'm like I have got to protect her little precious heart, not fuck with her to the point where you guys, like I would literally say this, to the point where I had no idea why.
Keri:I don't think she knew why, but the week after he moved out she was on a plane here. I like, I mean literally. She's like I'm buying a ticket, I'm coming, and I don't know what I would have done without you that week. I don't and like the amount of things that she saw that she could point out for me, like are you fucking kidding me? This is what's been going on. And also, by the way, met the guy that we were talking about and was like Carrie, he's just a normal dude.
Keri:He is just, he is not a miracle and I was like the sun shined out of his ass, which, by the way, doesn't First time you experienced, not you Right.
Jamy:I mean anyone who could handle emotions you know, like experienced in your marriage was going to be like a miracle. That's true. I remember he's moving out, I'm buying a ticket. I had no idea what the fuck I was doing, but I was going to be there.
Keri:Oh my God, I don't know what I've done without you.
Jamy:We even moved weird like contraptions that were set up in your living room the rats, the rats and that fucking water feature thing Like why is this in your living?
Keri:room. Oh my God, you guys, it was wild. It was a wild week and honestly and I say this because she really has she's been the sister that has shown up and protected me and loved on me and seen me through the points where I fully had abandoned myself on me and seen me through the points where I fully had abandoned myself and where I didn't know how to even hear myself, to know what I wanted, to be able to think that I could have what I wanted and that I was worthy of what I wanted, or that it was capable, or there was someone who would actually meet me. And the amount of times then that I would go underneath my own boundaries again and again and again, and she'd be like Carrie, oh okay, try it again. Fuck, abandoned. Who is really abandoning? Oh fuck, I was. It's a journey.
Jamy:It's been a journey.
Keri:It's been a journey and so to get to this place where I can walk through open-eyed and make choices and choose, because it feels really fucking good to have my heart open, even though it's scary, even though I don't know, even though there's an unknown, even Like it doesn't work and it's okay to get hurt.
Jamy:Like, if you're learning from it, it's okay.
Keri:It's not the end of the world. It's not, we're just scared to feel the uncomfortable, but it's, yeah, it's actually quite beautiful, it's really beautiful, and I think when you really start to understand heartbreak, it's a, it's a, it's a catalyst.
Jamy:Yeah.
Keri:For me it's a, it's a, it's a catalyst. For me it's like if I were to walk into every relationship afraid of having my heart broken. Well, I actually, when I Scott is the guy I was dating last year and when I dated him, what I really took away from, one of the biggest things I took away from that relationship, was the ability to say I don't know if we're going to be together.
Keri:I don't know if there is a forever, and I am prepared to be here and present with you and love you, even though tomorrow it might end. And I think what I really came to the conclusion of and I don't think a lot of people get this is that at some point every relationship ends, whether it's through death or whether it's through it ends. Or one person ends it or the other, or you mutually end it. Every relationship as it is ends. That does not mean it ends. He was still in my life.
Keri:It's just different. It takes a different form. Love takes a different form.
Keri:And so when you can do that and you can go, okay, well, no matter what that's going to happen, then the next question becomes and this is where I have learned and how I've really like, if we actually come down to how I keep opening my heart is the next thing becomes well, can I hold myself through the pain of the heartache?
Keri:And what I have learned is that everything that has happened in the past has been some of the most horrendous pieces of suffering that I've ever lived through Having to go through divorcing a husband and a mom, and what happened with Scott, who ended up getting into bed with my best friend, all within months of each other, right. So not only did I lose the relationship with Scott, who ended up getting into bed with my best friend, all within months of each other, right. So not only did I lose the relationship with Scott, I also lost my one of my best friends at the time, right After going through that within about five, six months of each other, I was still have gratitude and love for all of them, because I don't feel the need to do that.
Keri:Like the bullshit that all of them still have, right, I still go for all of them. And to be able to do that and go. You know what? I made it through that and I held myself through that and I'm here and I'm alive and I'm a better person for all of it. Then if I can do that, then whatever else the world's going to bring me and let's be honest, you guys, I'm a 51 shock line it's all going to come in a shocking way.
Keri:So the second, I surrendered to that. I'm like it's going to be shocking, something's going to happen, I'm going to have to deal with it. Why would I stop myself from opening myself to the fact that somewhere in this world there is a love that is so deep for me, that is so healing, and what I'm going through right now?
Jamy:is so Right and I'm willing to show up here. You don't have to take the gifts with you and leave the rest, because I do want to point out she loves these people. She's not friends with these people. She also honors herself in the boundaries, and it's like you are not in alignment with taking care of our friendship in the same way that I am and I love that you are. You know, like you don't hate, you don't. You are like the purest love in this, like recognition of the gifts and self-loving boundaries, and then you don't have access to all this amazingness anymore. That's you know, like I think that what a beautiful, what a beautiful lesson to have witnessed, but also to have learned from.
Jamy:So thank you it gets to be both and people it gets to be both and it's true.
Jamy:Yeah, and I'm glad that I don't have to maintain that, because you will talk at some point about the bullshit that people do and the you know, like the aftermath of of decisions that come out of disintegrity and avoidance of self, like all of these things can be avoided if people can stop and actually see their own motivations, their own drives, what's happening. But because they don't want to be that honest with themselves, it comes out in these wonky sideways, actions that cause ripples that are, you know, obviously offer healing. But there are easier ways to do it too.
Keri:There are easier ways to do it and I think, actually, I think we probably should end it here in the fact that it's there are easier ways to do things. And this is what I learned, right, and this is actually you guys like, I wrote the new wealth four years ago and in that experience, the new wealth, that book Magnetize Abundance, hold your Wealth and Leave a Legacy I saw this utopian society.
Keri:I'll say it this way right when we can have this infinite bliss, abundance, joy, peace and love. And what I knew when I wrote that book was the only thing that's stopping me is the suffering that I'm creating for myself, and so the journey has been.
Keri:How do I let go of the suffering? And really what we're talking about? The biggest piece of my suffering was my marriage, and so I knew I had to either resolve it, which is where Jamie and Kyle have ended up in this beautiful. There's a so much more resolution and so much more love, because we were very similar places and um, and for me it was to end it and, and then, from there, look at where else I was suffering, right In my health and all these other places, and and I remember you, like Jamie Jamie will confirm this Like it wasn't even months ago.
Keri:I was still saying my mental health was still so messy that I was like is there ever going to be a day that I'm not going to be anxious? Is there ever going to be a day that they don't have these looping thoughts? Is there ever going to be a day that I don't create my own suffering? I've been trapped in this hellish mind of myself and I literally just said to her I was gardening on Sunday and I spent three hours in the garden and it was empty and I was like, oh my God, this is what it's like to have freedom and like to have freedom, and I say this because we get to choose this, and we have to choose it over and over and over, and I'm going to cry.
Jamy:It is not just something that, for most people, snaps and happens. It is intentional choice that you create.
Keri:Every day to choose, that I don't want the suffering, and instead I'm going to remain open-hearted to what it is that I want to create, which is love For me. It is the North star of everything is love love for myself, love for my children, love for the people that are in my life and if it does not bring me peace, this is my biggest North star right now, and I'm a manifestor too, so this is obviously my. I am supposed to be in peace, but I think this isn't just because I'm a manifestor. I think it's because we're human and our nervous systems feel really happy when they're peaceful.
Jamy:Is does this bring me peace? Does this bring me love? Does this bring me joy? If it's a yes, then I'm a fuck yes to being there. If it's not, then I'm not. And and it's not peace in the moment. Right, like, like what peace? This distinction, that like peace in the moment is not long-term peace, so like, even in this recent conflict, peace, a surface level peace would have been not engaging right, but like deep peace with what is does require fighting for some things, does require doing some uncomfortable things, and it's important to make a distinction.
Keri:And even in that and I will say this because from somebody who could not find peace and has lived in anxiety for so long, warding off panic attacks for years Even in that conversation there was peace in my body.
Jamy:Exactly, it's an inner state. It is not a thing outside of you.
Keri:There's peace in my body and that is how I know that when I choose to show up here in a different way, it's because there's peace and it's worth it to me to try something new that feels uncomfortable, because I choose peace and love, and that's the North Star. And if I am in peace and love, I say yes, and it's worth trying new things and changing the way that we do things to actually align to that North Star and say, yes, I deserve this. Yes, this is what I get to have. And as we are moving this and I say this because as we were moving, it is a different orientation my orientation was I get mess, mess, mess, mess, mess and I was like creating a fuck ton of mess.
Keri:There are times that I think to my friends like, oh, my God, I don't know how you stayed with me through so much mess, right, but now it's like I love the conversations I have because it's not messy, like it's messy, like life is messy, but it's like it's peaceful and there's there's, there's responsibility and there's like, yeah, this thing happened and this is what's going on, but it's not like, oh my God, my world is falling apart.
Jamy:It's like there is the what is and how you interpret it is. Is your inner state right? You're no longer creating disruption with what is, you're allowing it to feed you and to serve you and navigate and learn and whatever that is, and it's the same thing happening outside. It's just you're interpreting it different and that's beautiful.
Keri:So yeah, Should we call it here, yeah?
Jamy:I think with that we will end this probably longer than we intended episode. We'll be back with more on the next week. And we'll be back with more on the next week. If you enjoyed this show, let us know. We're all about authentic connections, so come chat with us on social media or email. Links are listed in the show notes.
Keri:And please make sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform and share the magic on your socials.
