Re-defining Normal
On Re-Defining Normal, we are having conversations to question conventional thinking and talk about the courage it takes to create, and live, a deliciously vibrant life.
This podcast is for people who know there's a better way to do life and love....how we show up in connection to others, our kids, our partner, our business... and beyond that our relationship with money, vitality and more than anything, ourselves.
We're two shamelessly unapologetic moms choosing to experience the fullness of life and we're collapsing the conditioning that says you can't live a life of pleasure, peace and abundance in the midst of the mundane of work, life and kids.
Re-defining Normal
Episode 6: Letting Go of Expectations
Have you ever felt trapped by your own expectations of others or the outcomes of your efforts? This episode of "Redefining Normal" with Jamy and I explores the liberating practice of releasing attachments to both. By challenging our conditioning to control life and people around us, we open the door to understanding ourselves better and fostering more authentic relationships. We particularly focus on the dynamics within partnerships, discussing how expectations can turn into controlling behaviors and how letting go can lead to healthier connections.
Relationships are meant to evolve, and this episode highlights the importance of not clinging to specific outcomes. We discuss how acknowledging personal growth and changes within a partnership doesn't signify failure but rather a natural progression. The notion of compulsory monogamy is also put under the microscope, as we argue that true love involves accepting and validating each other's evolving selves. Through personal stories, we illustrate the value of staying present and committed to the journey, regardless of the uncertainties that relationships might bring.
Lastly, we dive into the strength found in self-reliance and emotional resilience. Reflecting on personal experiences, we emphasize the importance of recognizing our responsibility for self-care and healing, even while seeking support from friends. We discuss how shifting our perspective can turn life's disruptions into opportunities for growth, encouraging listeners to embrace the full spectrum of human emotions. By being true to ourselves and not contorting to fit others' expectations, we attract relationships that appreciate us for who we truly are. Join us for this insightful conversation on authenticity, self-love, and the journey of personal and relational growth.
Welcome to Redefining Normal. Join us as we question conventional thinking and talk about the courage it takes to create and live a deliciously vibrant life.
Speaker 2:This podcast is for people who know there's a better way to do life and love how we show up in connection to others our kids, our partners, our business and, beyond that, our relationship with money, vitality and, more than anything, ourselves.
Speaker 1:We're two shamelessly unapologetic moms choosing to experience the fullness of life.
Speaker 2:And we're collapsing the conditioning that says you can't live a life of pleasure, peace and abundance in the midst of the mundane of life, responsibilities, work and kids.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening in. Let's do this. On this episode of Redefining Normal, jamie and I are diving into the topic of releasing attachment to outcomes and people. I'm really excited about this chat. It's Jamie, we've been having a really good as we do. This is what happens with us. We are always catching up and then we have a conversation. We're like, oh my God, we have to talk about this. So both of us were just chatting about relationships that we are both in and how certain people can have expectations of an outcome, and so we wanted to start to kind of dive into, to start with, like, what is the current conditioning around having these attachments, outcomes, whether they're in our personal relationships, like you know, person to person, or even, like I would even go as far as to say money or items or all these different things Like we attach, as humans, to stuff and people, and it isn't always a healthy experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, we attach to an idea of something.
Speaker 2:I think of this, as you know, like we think we know the way it should be, the way it should look, what we want it to look like, and that is almost counterintuitive to the fact that there is a flow of life, there is, um, there is a current that's happening.
Speaker 2:It's, it happened, you know, long before any of us were here. It's going to happen long after we go, and then we think we drop in and we're going to control it and we're going to make it look a certain way and we're going to, you know, like, manufacture um outcomes and specific experiences and um specific relationships. And it has to do with our own comfort level, probably, right, like, think about, like I, I want to feel loved, so I need my person to do A, b and C in order for me to feel that. And the problem with that is we don't, we have no control over other people's actions, right? So it becomes our responsibility to kind of let go of what happens outside of us and focus more on how we navigate, how we respond, how we perceive those things that are happening outside of us, because the attachment is that thing outside of me is going to look or be or happen the way I think it should.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think so much in life really becomes like how we respond to things ultimately is everything. So when we look at this from a current perspective of what we're doing in the world and I would say you and I have seen this in our own marriages, in our own relationships, in our own relationship with so many things, and not just us, but like with our clients and, uh, friends all around the world- I mean like yeah.
Speaker 1:So so, when we look at this from a current perspective, what would you say is what's currently? What's currently the norm, cause we're breaking, we're redefining normal, so what's currently Right?
Speaker 2:Right. I mean I would say that the norm is yeah To to to just try and control everything, try to force life to look a certain way in order to not feel the things that it brings up when it doesn't. I mean, isn't that why we, why we even create an idea? Is, if it happens this way, it's going to confirm to me what I want to feel. It's going to confirm to me what I believe to be true versus well, like we were talking earlier, the ability to lean into. I have no idea what my response is going to be to this situation and I'd actually really like to experience it so that I understand more of myself and my capacity to respond to life. It may get dicey, it may get a little weird to respond to life.
Speaker 3:It may get dicey it may get a little weird.
Speaker 2:It may get a little stressful.
Speaker 3:My nervous system might be a little. My nervous system might get a little jacked up, right, but let's do it.
Speaker 2:Let's like, let's lean into the unknown, to the uncomfortable, in order to find more parts of ourselves, in order to become more aware of what we actually are, and not what we're trying to be or what we think we should be.
Speaker 1:It's like the thing that keeps coming to me to say, to add to this is like one of the ways that I see this in the spiritual world or the personal development world in such a huge way, is women to men right?
Speaker 1:Women who are in partnership with a man, who we are. And I say this because, generally speaking, the women are evolving and growing before and faster than a lot of the men of this world. Yeah, we've been engaged in the space longer, not all, not fully, true, but in many ways this is the dynamic right. And so a lot of women want their men to come in and show up a certain way and be a certain way and go do this path and dah, dah, dah. And then we try and control a path for them of how they're supposed to awaken and how they're supposed to be and how they're supposed to show up for us and how they're supposed to like, whatever Right. And then we hold this I, I don't even know like it is a control, I guess at some level or we, it's an expectation yeah, yeah transaction that they don't necessarily want to or can't meet yeah right and I can see it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I know I've been there, we've both been there, we've asked our men to do things in my marriage and in yours, b and C, because I was, because that's what's normal, because that you know, whatever the story is, um, we, we don't have control over these souls that are becoming themselves in this world, like we're here to guidepost their journey and offer wisdom and support. Um, but we don't, we don't, we don't have control over how, who and what they are in the world.
Speaker 3:you know and the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, the same thing if I were to take it into the relationship with money, because so many of us want to control money, like it has to come this way it has to be this way and I, I should be.
Speaker 1:I I've got how many times have I heard this? I should be in a better place right now in my life and I should have this and because I'm 50 years old, or I'm 40 years old, like I should be further ahead, right, right, and it should look like this and if money is this, then that means whatever I'm worthy of you.
Speaker 2:Right yeah.
Speaker 1:Or if I have this much money I'm worthy of Right, Right and I'm successful.
Speaker 2:I'm yeah. All of these things.
Speaker 1:So we put so much attachment onto something outside of ourselves to really pretty much validate ourselves, right, right, and so that's what it looks like, and if you were to look at this from a current perspective of, I would actually ask the question where are you looking outside yourself to validate yourself? Yes, to make yourself feel better, to make yourself like worthy, to make yourself successful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, I mean like it's really a self-protection mechanism, right, like it's the fear of feeling all the things we don't want to feel, whether it's money, whether it's parenting, whether it's relationship, whether it's work, whatever it is. It's like if this happens a certain way, then I can feel, whatever my story is, because I don't want to feel the opposite, I don't want to feel unworthy, I don't want to feel scared, I don't want to feel like a failure. I don't, you know all these things. But what if we did like? What if we were like? What, what? What does failure feel like, and can I integrate that and kind of learn what it has to show me? What does disappointment show?
Speaker 3:me.
Speaker 2:What does you know? I mean, all of these things reveal more of us, you know? I mean that's what we're here to do. We are here to experience the things, all the things, the full range, the good and the bad, and we learn with every, with every single opportunity that's presented us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, I think it's important to say here too that this is totally normal, Like, don't like, as you hear us talking about this, don't be like. Oh my God, I'm a bad person because this is happening, because it's totally normal this is the way we operate.
Speaker 3:Like this is why we're talking about it?
Speaker 1:because we're going through some of it, right because we're seeing in our relationships right or we're seeing actually for us today. What we're talking about is seeing how it's different and it's become a journey for us to not get so attached and to be able to recognize the places that we are, because this is what will happen, is that things will come in, people will come in that will show us like, hey, am I doing this differently? Do I need to attach to you? Do I right? And how am I showing up differently? How am I responding differently and in the conversation we're having, being like and am I willing to walk the path to feel the things that I know I will feel by not attaching to the outcome, to this right To knowing and like. What we're talking about, too, is like to knowing that in relationship, in loving relationship, that I mean.
Speaker 1:I say this and I said it in my, the book that is coming. I am working on the edits this weekend, jamie, it's going to go in. It's going going in. It ends with me. Um, one of the things I talk about is I, after marriage, I was like I don't believe in a quote unquote the one. Yeah, right, like I already had my quote, unquote the one. It didn't work. We're not together anymore, so consequently, why would I assume that from now on, that I'm going to have other one? You're?
Speaker 2:going to find another one, right.
Speaker 1:Maybe, or I'm going to have other one. You're going to find another one, right?
Speaker 2:Maybe, or I'm going to have a one until it's no longer a one. I think this is so healthy Like, because when you think about, like, compulsory monogamy, right? This idea that, like we're supposed to pair up and do this thing, that's beautiful. If you're doing it. With this awareness of like, we are going to change a million times over and in each iteration of us. If we're still a beautiful fit and a complimentary fit for each other, awesome. But also this awareness that, like, sometimes we change in different directions and can we honor those changes. Like, sometimes we change in different directions and can we honor those changes. Like, can we love each other in exactly where we are in the whole journey.
Speaker 1:You know, like I think it's really. I think it's one of the most beautiful things in the world actually, as I've watched more and more people these last few years this last year specifically actually a lot of really beautiful loving couples who, like, when you look at them, you're like, oh my God, like what a beautiful loving relationship you have. And they get to the place where we are no longer lying. It's not that you're a bad person, not that we didn't have an amazing relationship, but we have different paths now, and to watch people uncouple that way is so, it's so honoring of exactly what we were talking about here.
Speaker 1:It's like when you release attachment to the fact that a person is your everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right and that you are come together for a time and a place for the healing that you have. Like the truth is that you walk into something like for me I look at it and I go. I walk into something knowing like it may end and at some point this may hurt. But am I not going to be present and in love in the moment and appreciate what I have in the moment for as many moments and as many days, which could be months, years, the rest of my life, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Until it's no longer a fuck. Yes, Right. Right.
Speaker 2:And how do we do that without I want to say cause I did this, I fuck, I did it in my marriage, but I contorting ourselves to be somebody that we're not in order for it to meet the relationship talk about uncoupling and and I feel like Kyle and I are in a similar I mean like we've come to the place where we prioritize our togetherness and we recognize what that means is that I'm going to choose to validate and honor whatever iteration of him is showing up at the table and whatever dynamics that changes, but it doesn't change that I love him and I'm here for him, and that gets to look a million different ways.
Speaker 2:Right, so it's an, it's an unattaching from a certain picture or idea or outcome. Right, Like this is kind of what we started with is no attachment to a specific outcome and committing to being on the journey and loving each other through whatever outcome, whatever experience, whatever challenge comes to the table. And that that means the unknown, right. The scary thing about that is like it's unknown. I have no idea what iteration may show up, but I am committed to journeying it and not collapsing, not running away, not, you know, going into my own wounding, but staying present, staying at the table and staying self reflective and responsible in whatever that looks like.
Speaker 1:And I think the thing that I love about that and I know for me it's something that I now bring into my relationship is like looking with fresh eyes, like every every time you see someone being like who are you today and I know with with my ex and I with you, and I like it wasn't and I and I would see him, but still to this day he holds me in who I was years ago. Yeah, right, he still holds me as a crazy I mean, this is what his words, not mine but a crazy dramatic. Ultimately, he would call me crazy psychos based people. Right, like he sees me as a totally fucked up, mentally unwell woman and he still holds me there.
Speaker 2:Right. You know what he holds himself in old versions too because, in order to see new versions of other people, we also have to recognize new versions of ourselves every day.
Speaker 1:Right. And so when you hold somebody in those places because I, you know and I and I and I'm really fully on her like, yeah, I had some mental health stuff going on and yeah, it could be really up and down and would have been really challenging for him, I am not the same person anymore. No, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. So when we can look at our intimate friendships or intimate partnerships and say I see you today as you are and I accept you today as you are, and I still want to be here today with you as you are and I don't want to change you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like that's where we come to an unattachment right. I choose you today, yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I've got myself and whatever it brings up.
Speaker 2:Right. I mean like, ultimately, it's the capacity to hold ourselves and to, to, to be with whatever somebody else's choices, actions, whatever brings up in us.
Speaker 1:That's how we can show up for that choice of not being attached yeah, okay, so can we talk a little bit more about, um, holding ourselves? Because I think, ultimately, for anyone who's listening like this to me, this to me is the biggest gift the last two years has been. Having left a marriage is the greatest gift it has given me, especially, like I just said, in my mental health stuff, like it really taught me, like I have. I mean, yes, I have beautiful friends like Jamie and some other people that hold me, which is true, but at the end of the day, I'm still home alone by myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, we're not meant to do it alone, and part of holding ourselves is seeking wise counsel, is seeking support when we need it and not trying to run to the thing that isn't working the way we want it to. Right, right.
Speaker 1:Right, and in the end, I'm still the one who has to pick up my pieces and keep moving Right, so I can come to Jamie and I can go. Jamie, this is all falling apart and I don't know what to do and I'm in a fucking mess. And can you help me out? Right, and she'll be there, a hundred percent. But the truth is that the help out after that is me taking those steps, is me loving myself, is me holding myself, and it has been the greatest gift, because for so long I couldn't do it Right and because I can now, it's like throw it at me.
Speaker 3:What are you going to give me? Do this.
Speaker 1:Right, Like. What are you going to give me that I can't like? That I mean honestly, after the last two years. What are you going to give me, world, that I can't hold myself through? Right.
Speaker 2:You know how, how paradigm shifting it is that when you really look at that because I think that a lot of people the mind will go to the worst case scenario, the most negative experience. And then when you remind that part of you like and look at you now like you made it through, you navigated it, you are healthy and whole and here. So really you're you're like 10 for 10, a hundred for a hundred, like whatever challenging situation you've experienced you've made it through because you're still here and yeah, maybe there's some scars, maybe there's some, you know things that need to be worked through, but you've made it like you're still here and the mind forgets that. The mind gets stuck in the fear of, like the bad thing happened Interesting.
Speaker 2:So like when we were in London, I traveled with a friend and she missed her flight. Weird, the weirdest. Like it felt like a fricking dimensional timeline weird thing because she was getting notifications that her flight was canceled or not canceled, delayed, right. So we were operating on like a two hour delay canceled, delayed, right. So we were operating on like a two-hour delay. We get to the airport and there is nobody in line for this flight. The flight desk, baggage is closed, like, like there isn't a flight that's happening in two hours and um, according to the system, the flight was already like, boarded and gone, but the app was saying it was delayed. So she missed the flight. She didn't actually like. Afterwards we found out the flight did leave delayed. She could have gotten through security, could have whatever, but the system was glitching or something.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Um, the next day, you know, we get our new ticket, we're back at the airport and she's like, oh my God, I'm like she was anxious and I'm going to miss my flight. And oh my God, and I'm like what happens if you miss your flight? Cause what happened? Like you missed your flight yesterday, what happened and immediately went to worst case scenario, like I'm not going to get home, I'm going to have to buy another ticket, like all these bad things. And I'm like, interesting, cause, what else happened yesterday? And I'm like, interesting, cause, what else happened yesterday?
Speaker 2:Like we had a whole nother day in London. We went to visit the spot that she like one of the things on her list that we didn't have time to do, so we had a whole nother opportunity to do all of these things. She got to you know, check more things off the list. We had a beautiful dinner, her tickets getting reimbursed, like all of these things. So like there was a lot of beauty that we didn't see because the mind automatically, automatically, went to like worst case scenario. So this unattachment from it looking some some way opens us to seeing all of the beautiful things that come with that one challenging bit that we get stuck on, if we're attached to it looking a certain way.
Speaker 1:It makes me think generally speaking. I love that story. It makes me think generally speaking of like, constantly looking for the silver linings. You know, I know for me again with with my 51 shock line, like I receive things in shock all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you have to be willing to look for the gift Right?
Speaker 1:no-transcript. Probably like shake other people and did shake me for a long time, I go huh, that's interesting yeah okay, what's next?
Speaker 1:and it takes me a minute or two. Right, it takes me a minute or sometimes a couple hours to process through it. But when you can always see the silver lining, like even when we've talked about I think already on the podcast when my the guy, scott that I was dating got into bed with my best friend, like it took me three days to process that and I promise you all people, like it really took me longer, but like it took me three days to find the silver lining truly, and about a week later I was like, oh my God, what a gift.
Speaker 3:And I knew even in the moment, even in the moment when my ex best friend was saying to me Carrie, you know, there's a gift in this. I was like F you gotch, you did not have to give me this fucking gift, right, right.
Speaker 2:Well, it can be paradoxical. It can be a fuck you, and of course there's a gift. Right Like, and of course there's a gift.
Speaker 1:Right. And so, in that moment, though it's still only took me like it truly was a gift in the fact that I it was my no, like this is the last time, Cause it had to get this ridiculous for it to be for me to finally say F, no, like we are not doing this ever again and I have not done anything like that ever again.
Speaker 2:The gift doesn't always bubbly, feel good thing Sometimes. It's sometimes right, it is understanding boundaries. Sometimes it is navigating painful heartbreak and recognizing how strong you are. Like this idea that the gift is always something just pretty, elated and beautiful is distorted because, because the gift is gross, the gift is evolution, the gift is new perspective. But you do, you have to be intentional about looking for and finding that, because the mind automatically sees the risk, the pain, the negative, because that's its job is to protect you from that, you know. So the default will always be to identify the risk or the negative, and you really have to choose to find, to identify, to acknowledge even what is good about this. What is the benefit here? Yeah, and you can't do that if you're attached to a specific outcome. If it doesn't look like this, it's bad, and if it looks like this, it's good. It's going to limit you so much in all areas of life, all areas of life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the faster that we can realize that we've got. So we were talking about this from the beginning, right? So, like, how do we hold ourselves? So in those moments, for me it's like, in those moments, you can fully collapse and again, this comes from somebody who's had mental health issues for a long time yes, we can fully collapse and we can let it take over us and we can feel like a victim to the situation or we can say, okay, so this thing happened for us to show us something. What is this revealing to me? How am I going to hold myself? Now?
Speaker 1:For me, holding myself is like recognizing, first of all. Generally speaking, in those moments, my first reaction will be some sort of in my nervous system. It will feel really jacked up, it will feel really anxious, I will feel like my heart will start racing. My butterfly there'll be butterflies in my stomach and I probably, at some point, if it gets hard enough, my butterfly there'll be butterflies in my stomach and I probably, at some point, if it gets hard enough, we'll struggle to breathe and like it feels really fricking intense.
Speaker 2:It is a psychosomatic response. It's not make-believe. Nope, it is there right.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it doesn't matter, like this can come from something extreme, like what I just said, or it can come from like some little thing that's even with your kids that you're like I don't really like that you're doing this, or I feel really nervous that you're out with this person, or, but they're safe, but they're just not. It's not a response that you can control or you you know so. Like you get to sit in, can I hold myself in someone else's choices or something else that's happening outside of myself and recognize, hey, my nervous system is feeling really out of whack right now. Right, how do I need to hold myself? What do I need right now, in this moment, to balance myself, to feel better, to hear myself? Um, then my next place would be from there, actually, probably right now.
Speaker 1:Lately, it's like seeing my little girl Like, hey, where are you? What do you need right now? Yeah, because she's the one somewhere inside of me that's having a freak out and she doesn't feel safe. And I, if I bring her in and I'm like okay, what do we need, the two of us, right now, to feel okay within ourselves?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, this is what we're talking about Not abandoning yourself, right? Because oftentimes that little girl gets abandoned by you in order to accommodate somebody else's expectation. So, yeah, you have to not abandon yourself in order to not be abandoned.
Speaker 1:Right, but ultimately, like in the event, like we, we fear as humans, abandon it. So much right that we then create it to go learn this.
Speaker 1:I mean, like this has been my dating scenario. Like let me just replay out abandonment issues over and over and learn this. Yeah, I mean, like this has been my dating scenario. Like let me just replay out abandonment issues over and over and over again. Right, just that I could learn to hold myself and be like right. Apparently, I still need to learn this one, right, right, well, because this is it right?
Speaker 2:Like if, if we want a certain outcome and we aren't willing to see anything outside of that outcome, we will, like you said, contort ourselves and twist ourselves and become something to fit into that thing, versus, in order to contort ourselves, you've got to abandon parts of you that are like no, thank you, I do not want to do that thing, but we will abandon that part of us to accommodate somebody else's expectation in order to see the outcome we want. So, yeah, I come back.
Speaker 1:I think a distinction here too, that would be really helpful is and I know in the, in the journey I'm on right now, right Like it can look like in some ways, my choices could be like am I abandoning myself? And I do question it Like am I abandoning my needs and my wants and my desires?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Or am I willing to put myself in a place that could also feel a little bit sticky to also have what I want Right? Am I willing to lean into an edge that's like, oh, that's a little bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And I want this Right, right. Is this contorting myself or is this feeling edgy and edgy can also feel a little bit like anxiety and contorting, like what is my true desire and really feel the difference in these nuances when you ask yourself like, am I willing? And then, when you start to learn to hold yourself, you're willing to go to these edges further.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because there's a practice in that, too right, like learning how to stabilize your nervous system, and doing that when it's not triggered is important. Understanding I often think about this is like, um, taking a walk through the scary forest during the day, when you can see the path, you can see the trees, you can see everything, so that when it's dark you're not like I have no idea where I am and what's going on, and you've got some resources to navigate the scary part. So, like practicing what you're talking about, like what are your resources for coming back into your body, stabilizing your nervous system, breathing, meditating, movement, like what works for you? Learn how to do that outside of a trigger so that you have access to it and it becomes like muscle memory, even to like drop back into that place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And I think, the more that you know, part of what I, part of what I teach, is with my quantum breath and quantum flow. That is part of the work that I do. Right, like that I help myself and my clients to actually find ways through movement, through breath, to actually stabilize their nervous system. Because for me, this has been the quintessential way that I can actually hold myself, because without it my nervous system was what was actually so dysregulated that was creating my mental health issues. And it's been interesting because, as things as I've been navigating stuff and my nervous system is going into this real, that dysregulated.
Speaker 1:Lately I'm like cause I've come more into peace than I've ever been. But then I'll swing out and I'm like, oh, thank God I don't live like this anymore. Cause, like I think about it, jamie, and I'm like man, this was 24, seven, now I can recognize it. And sometimes it can take me a day or two to like bring it back into, like, ah, okay, here's peace again, right. Cause sometimes things are like woo, and it's not even in that it's still not the level of necessarily what it used to be, but like even with all the tools in the world, especially as I'm letting go of of addictive patterns, to again turn outside of myself, right. So I'll even say it here Like one of the things that was my my tool was to to turn to cannabis, right, and as I've Jamie, it's like two months, nice job, yeah.
Speaker 1:So as I've let go of that, because for a while everybody like that was my way, like when I was near panic attack, like that was the one thing, it didn't matter if I had all the breath work, all the brain work, all the everything, when I was at like I've got to get to my due life and somehow that was like thank God I had it.
Speaker 1:And even working with my neurofeedback therapist, she's like here, your brain is not able to regulate itself right now. So like it makes sense that you turn to this because it's actually helping you do something you physically aren't able to do right now. Right. So now that I know that I don't actually physically need that right now, I've been able to do things differently and I'm working to not use that as a tool for my own regulation, which means that sometimes my regulation takes a little bit longer to hit to get to right, but I can also hold myself in it way better than I ever could, and hence why I'm like in a place where, okay, it's time that I can learn to do this without that yeah and um, and in that, like, like you said, it has to be done in a way that's outside of the darkness.
Speaker 1:If I only started to use breath work tools and my quantum flow tools and my quantum breath tools and all the things that I have that helped me to regulate my nervous system, now there's no, there's, there's no way I would be doing right, but it's because I've built this practice over time that I know, you know, what I can hold myself. I can trust myself that when I'm in this place, that somehow, somewhere along the path, there will be some way that I can bring my nervous system back into center.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the goal, the goal is not to never feel dysregulated. We live in physical bodies with nervous systems. It is built to react to external stimulus. This is just a part of being human beings. So, like, this idea that you're going to get to a place where that never happens is is absurd. And I would say if, if people are operating that way, then they are numbing or avoiding something. Your nervous system is built to do that.
Speaker 2:So the resource or the goal for us is to learn how to navigate it, how to be healthy in its response, to step back and assess what do we need to do? Like, is there some danger here? Is there something I need to do? Like, is there some danger here? Is there something I need to do? And to separate and kind of untangle the reaction from what it is we actually really need to do in a moment, you know, and and how to come back to conscious center, because, like you were saying, nervous system first, then kind of zoom in into, like inner child, and that I think that it can go two ways right, like you can zoom into the parts of you or you can zoom way out and see big picture, like, depending on the situation, depending on the trigger, depending on your natural capacity.
Speaker 2:You know it's like so many different ways, but it's it is. It's almost like untangling your response from the current trigger, like what my body thinks something's happening. Is that actually what's happening and do I need to zoom out or do I need to zoom in to get clearer on on the perspective I need to take in order to, yeah, come back to center, like we are our own massive, complex ecosystems, galaxies, you know, like this whole eternity in our own bodies, you know. And so when we remember that and we start operating like that in those triggers, we definitely make different choices. We respond differently to the thing that did or didn't happen the way we thought it would. You know, right Feels completely different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, I mean like we bring this back to the beginning right At the end of the day when we learn this and we recognize that, as you just said, like this is totally normal, all of this stuff is normal and and I think that's why it's so important to say this, because even as we're talking about redefining normal, right, it is so normal to have these reactions, and I'm going to say it like it is a body reaction, and Jamie and I often talk we were talking about just before getting on this call about how important it is to recognize, in this day and age, we are humans living here in a human body.
Speaker 1:Like this is how our body responds and if you try, to avoid your human body and your human experience, you will not actually you will not actually experience being human and you will not actually create your dreams, because it's through your body, through this 3d reality, that we create our dreams. Otherwise, there's just a fricking vision out left into the world.
Speaker 2:Right, this is what we're here to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is what we're here to do to the physical.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And to experience the highs and the lows, to experience the sadness, to experience the happiness. Without the darkness, there is no light, right. And so when we're in these moments, right, when we're in these moments, right, when we're in these moments, to me it was really interesting when I went through this bipolar you know work that I was going through. One of the first healers I actually spoke to said Carrie, just recognize that all humans are bipolar. And I was like what she's like? All humans are bipolar. And I was like she goes.
Speaker 1:So, instead of thinking that you're bad or that you're going to fix this, learn how to be with this, because you live in two polars, it will always be in two polars, so you need to learn how to be in your body in these two polars. And when I heard that, I was like thank you for that gift, because I couldn't run from it anymore, I couldn't try and fix it, I couldn't try and make it better, but what I could do is learn how to live in this body when I can experience joy and disappointment all in the same, freaking breath sometimes yeah Right, all in the same day. Or I can be like, wow, I'm really disappointed in this moment, but I can still turn up for work and be like, wow, I can still be here and be present and hold. Wow, I'm really pissed off about this thing that happened over here.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it's all happening in our body and when you can actually learn to hold that like. None of that is right or wrong, none of it is bad or good, it just is. That is when we can hold ourselves. And when we can hold ourselves we can release attachment to anybody else, making us better. And it doesn't mean that it doesn't feel really good when someone else validates you. It doesn't mean that, like you, don't want to be loved and seen and cherished, and it doesn't mean that that isn't an amazing part of humanity and our connection. And we get to come back into ourselves and say and I am as I am.
Speaker 2:I'm completely okay if this doesn't happen the way that I want it to. I mean, like the capacity right To exist and to be stable in either extreme is is liberating. You know, like it's, it's it's. It's a game changer in a lot of ways, because think about how many people bend over backwards. And people please and try to be what they think someone else wants in order to avoid really having to address maybe this person isn't aligned with me. You know, like I think you and I have had a lot of practice in that, so it becomes really easy for us to be like I'm not, I'm not gonna step out of center to accommodate this thing.
Speaker 2:Um, can be jarring for people around you. You know to be like wait, but you don't like me, you don't care, you don't. It's like it's not. It's not that at all. It's just that if I have to become something I'm not in order for this dynamic to work, it's probably not for me and you can't make something for you. That's not for you. It doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter who you become, momentarily or for any length of time. If it is not aligned it, there's no contorting yourself enough to make it align, because now you're no longer in alignment with yourself. To be aligned, that feels shit it is totally.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's ultimately the whole book right ends with me. It was like I contorted myself to be somebody for my ex-husband, for my mom, for so many other ways that I was miserable, Right. And then it's that's the disconnect, right, that's the anxiety that I was living in because, like there was no way that I could ever be happy, being contorted and hiding and trying to be somebody that I never, that I wasn't. And and I will also say it was like funny, because they were talking about people pleasing and I will also say that that doesn't make it easy not to do it.
Speaker 1:Now I still catch myself in it. We still have moments and thank goodness I have people around me that support me and go, hey, hey, are you doing that thing? Now? Like, oh, my God, I totally am. How do I? Again? It's like this is the journey, right? How do we respond? It's like we're not perfect, we're not perfect specimens of humans. But it's like how can I not do that this time? How can I change? How can I respond differently now that I'm aware, yeah, I am doing that. Do I still want to be here? Is this okay?
Speaker 2:How can I shift my own response to my own reaction to being here so that I don't do that now, when you're your full self too, you find people that actually love you for your full self, right, like I mean? I think so. Like we've talked about this, I am a lot of chaos. I respond to life. I do not like I exist in um Kairos, moments, in experiences, and not in linear time like Kronos. I don't, I don't do well in that that system that is disturbing for a lot of people and I think I spent a lot of time trying to accommodate the expectation of linear time and I've kind of gotten to the point where it's like I, I, this is it, this is me, and I have a lot of people in my life who are like your presence in my life is worth the missed meetings and the like, changing schedule and the bit of chaos that comes with trying to do something with you.
Speaker 1:For example, this podcast was a mental launch two weeks ago and when we set the date, I was like Jamie, you're going to be away, Are you sure? And then I went on a trip. She went away for three weeks and I was like, are you sure? And as we're like messaging while she's away, she's like she's totally gone.
Speaker 2:And I'm like I just still doing this. Yeah, no, probably not, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I do like I disappear into whatever the present moment is you know, and that's beautiful for the present moment, and it's disruptive to the things that are not in the present moment and I've had to be totally okay with that in order to call in people that that love me and surround me, that are also okay with that, you know, and and it's scary. It's scary because I also had to be willing to recognize that there might be fewer people, that I might be alone sometimes, in order to experience this fullness. But I also have been so blessed with people like you and like Kyle and my sisters, and who are just like that's Jamie being Jamie, like she's gonna do what she's gonna do, and I get to experience the freedom of that and I also get to give permission to others.
Speaker 2:So, like the things that you do, you know, it's like I'm going to love you through every bit of it. It can get really fucking messy, it can get really neat and tidy, but both extremes I'm here and I love you, you know. And it's like when we get to be our fullest selves and still feel loved in that. That that's that's it. That's what it's about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's magic, and I'd say that the more that we do this and the more that we walk this path, there are less people. But the people that I have and the people that you have are so fulfilling that I'd pick less people any day of the week yeah, any day of the week then contorting myself to meet other people's needs.
Speaker 2:Well, that feels like healthy attachment week than contorting myself to meet other people's needs. Well, that feels like healthy attachment, right, like it's like this um, devotion to self and alignment and allowing whatever that brings in and also what that clears out, um, and not being attached to keeping or pushing anything, it's just the state of blow and trusting what that looks like. And part of this conversation stems from, you know, some um, I have a connection that um, you know really had expectations of things, of time spent and things looking a certain way. Um, and I, you know, because I operate so different, I did a lot of communicating ahead of time to like negate any expectation, like I'm I'm a free flow kind of gal. I cannot guarantee I'm going to be anywhere at any given time, but if our, if our paths cross, awesome. You know, like I'm up for that.
Speaker 2:If that's where the, where the energy goes, that is not where the energy went on this particular trip and we had a conversation. You know, like I expected that it would look different and I recognized my kind of detachment really is like I, I apologize for any miscommunication, but also I did my best to communicate. You know the way it would be and I'm okay If you're uncomfortable with the way that I operate and that this dynamic doesn't work for you. You know, like I'm, I'm really okay If the way I operate is not in service to your highest good, and that's okay with me. And I think I can feel when other people are like, oh, but I really really appreciate this relationship or I want this relationship, and so what do I need to do to make it keep working Right? Like um, and that really is dicey territory of stepping out of center in order to accommodate the expectations of other people.
Speaker 1:Because at the end of the day you'll end up resentful and pissed off and the relationship won't work.
Speaker 2:And fucking lonely because if you know you're not being your full self, like when you know someone loves you, because you're not your full self, you can't lie to yourself, you can't like, you know the truth of it and so it leads to loneliness. Even if there's people around you, if you know they don't love you for all of you, it's still lonely, it's still people.
Speaker 1:Because, even even if I think I'll say this and then we probably need to wrap it up but I was thinking, as you said, that, like even when I was with Scott a couple of years ago, I can remember, because he's a therapist and of course I do all this other amazing work with people that is not therapy, quote, unquote therapy but I'm constantly, always helping people to shift and change their lives and it was always an interesting experience in talking to him where he was like it was almost like this Um, I wasn't enough in the way I was doing things, because I wasn't doing it in a therapy way or something like that. Right, right.
Speaker 3:And so I'd be like, oh, can I right, right, and I'd be like, so can I share this?
Speaker 1:And he'd be like, yeah, I don't really know. Or hey, I want to show you this part. Yeah, I don't really want to see that part. Or hey, I'd like to dance for you. No, that's not really going to be okay for me right now. And I'm like, and there was all these places that I wanted to show him pieces of myself where he didn't really want. This is okay, but in the end I could never, and I and I wanted to. You heard it right. I wanted it to be everything, because this man had so many great things and it's true, he had a lot of great things that I'd never experienced before. Right, but it still meant that I had to contort myself. So is it a surprise that it ended the way it did Not at all. Like, I'm not really surprised. I knew it would end. I didn't actually think this was going to be something that was like forever, I think in some fantasy. Within the first few weeks I did. Thank you, trauma, bonded experience. We live and learn people.
Speaker 2:Our capacity to create something that doesn't exist.
Speaker 1:But like, it's really truly amazing. Like and it shows up, like, and I remember at the time time thinking like, why don't you want to see that part of me? Why would you judge that part of me? And why do I feel like I have to say this in a gentle, careful way so that I don't, like rub something the wrong way, to like not have this land okay for you, and part of that was my own stuff too.
Speaker 2:Like that wasn't fully him.
Speaker 1:Part of it was my own stuff, like wanting to be revealed but scared to reveal or you're gonna judge or you're gonna shame, and, like you know, I probably projected some of that onto him as well. Um, but like nowhere should we have to like hide something or should we be in a relationship, or someone doesn't want to see a part of you?
Speaker 2:yeah, especially when it's something that you're deeply aligned with, like it's one thing to be open to people that love you, challenging things that are out of alignment or that are maybe toxic or conditioned behaviors or fears that you're unaware of, to be able to meet that conversation and be open to changing if it's in alignment with you. But so many people step out of center to accommodate versus. I've done a lot of deep work to understand that this is my alignment, this is how I move in the world and I'm okay if people move away because that doesn't work for them. You know, like that's okay.
Speaker 1:And also I think it's okay too that you can show a part and you don't have to agree, right, right, like, there's relationships that I'm in that I might show this part and even in, like this situation, therapy to not. You might not agree with me, but it's okay that I show it to you. Yeah, and I feel safe showing it to you. Yeah, right, and we can totally disagree, that's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we disagree on a lot of things, and I think that's the beauty of it, though. Right like like, if we, if we just uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh about everything would be so boring, it would be an echo chamber, and that's that capacity to hold, though, is like right. Um, just because I disagree with you, because what happens is the right or wrong. Right, it's like well, if she's right, then I must be wrong. Versus they're both true, they're both valid perspectives in whatever scenario they exist in, and they can coexist.
Speaker 1:And it's important that they coexist. Yeah, and even to the point where, like I mean, if I look at right, you and Kyle, like you both do things very fricking differently, right, but you can still be like both, you know, in relationship anywhere. Right, we do things differently, we show up differently, we might hold ourselves differently and you can still love each other. That's not like you have to be the same or like your part that's being seen, has to be like yeah, I want to be like that and I totally agree with that.
Speaker 2:no, yeah, you just have to be allowed to be seen well, and I think that that's a big thing is like starting to look at relationships. It's like what is this, is this going to teach me? How can I learn and grow and experience new parts of myself and the world around me? Um, because I think that so many people look for relationships to make them happy, to like, make them feel safe and to feel, um, at ease, or really to like, fulfill a whole, you know, versus like. Can I use this to just experience more of myself and my response to other people? Can I learn how to love? Can I learn how to accept? Can I, you know all of these things and when we're not attached to it, looking a certain way or feeling a certain way, there's, there's just so much freedom, so much freedom for yourself, for the other person, like mirrors, I mean, at the end of other person.
Speaker 1:We're all just mirrors. I mean, at the end of the day we're all just mirrors walking each other home right.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, so Kyle and I, literally all our arrows are opposite. So everywhere that I'm defined, he's more flexible, and everywhere that he's defined, I want to be flexible, it's kind of hilarious really when we learn that it's like no wonder it's so hard for us to understand each other.
Speaker 2:And then we, then we started to recognize. So if we actually recognize this about each other, we become stable because we've got all four legs of a table. You know, it's like if we can actually respect what the other person brings versus frustrated that you don't do it the same way that I do, it can be really beautiful, Like all relationships, even some of the most painful, can be really fucking beautiful. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally All right. Do we have to say anything?
Speaker 2:else, before we wrap this one up, I don't think I mean just surrender, like notice, where you're attached, where you you have a very strong idea of what it should look like. Let it go, let it dissolve, just get curious about what actually is there. What is there if you're not forcing it to look a certain way? That's a really fun, you know, experiment game to play with yourself. What does it look like? If I am not really controlling and forcing an outcome You'd be, surprised. What's there?
Speaker 1:I love that. I think we should leave it there. Thanks everyone for listening.
Speaker 2:See you next week. If you enjoyed this show, let us know. We're all about authentic connections, so come chat with us on social media or email.
Speaker 1:Links are listed in the show notes, so come chat with us on social media or email Links are listed in the show notes and please make sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform and share the magic on your socials.
